The norm that the ulama did come to consensus on was only a general guideline: they prohibited sexual intercourse for girls not able to undergo it, on the basis that otherwise sex could be physically harmful. Read 1 Corinthians 10:13. He also gives 3 main reasons why it is not recommended to set a certain cutoff for basic rights, these being: This is more or less how medieval Islamic scholars dealt with the issue. Thus, it also means that he was between 4448 years old when he first encountered Bathsheba, who 1 King David was now an old man, 7 Adonijah met with Joab the son of Zeruiah and Abiathar the priest and asked them if they would help him become king. Third, if Ahijah is an alternate name for Eliam, it still does not refute the claim that Eliam was the son of Ahithophel and the father of Bathsheba, simply because the Chronicler does not provide any additional information. a native of Giloh, was a privy councillor of David, whose wisdom was highly esteemed, though his name had an exactly opposite signification. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Thus, while marriage at the onset of puberty was not unusual, the Bible indicates that both marriage and sexual intercourse were sometimes permitted at very young ages (though this does not appear to be the norm). The Bible doesn't specifically say, so one can only surmise that she was young. (2 Samuel 11:24) David didnt invite Bathsheba. hmm wasnt Bathsheba married before she was pregnant with Solomon and also didnt she also lose a child before giving birth to Solomon I mean come on abduls 11-18), God says of the future Israelite kings, he will take.. Webrussian central bank rothschild. See the same link to the playlist. He didnt go down to his own house. In the evening Uriah went out to sleep in the same place, alongside his masters servants, but he did not go down to his own home. Examining Quran 9:29 - Does Islam Sanction The Killing Of Christians & Jews? As the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary, Jehoiadas life was protracted to unusual longevity. We have already seen evidence in a previous article that the marriage was Biblically valid. 9 However, Uriah slept at the palace entrance with all his masters servants. Called Ammiel, 1 Chronicles 3:5. Would David have called Ahithophel a man mine equal (https://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/psalms/55.htm). The reader should recall that Hushai the Arkite was the double-agent in 2 Samuel 17 who persuaded Absalom to ignore Ahithophels advice on how to fight David. Using Psalm 55:23, it would mean that Ahithophel could not have gone past the age of 45 years (note again that this is the, Even if David slept with a 7-year old, that does not mean that God approved of it!, This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I anointed you king over Israel Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing, Notice that the sin was in killing Uriah the Hittite. 2. The adultery scandal and the subsequent revolt by Absalom and Ahithophel would have required a clarification, but only if the author meant to refer to different people. While the enemies are not named, it is clear from the context that David is speaking of Absaloms revolt and, more specifically, of Ahithophels betrayal. [78] Finally, in Acts 13:22, God is quoted as testifying about David as a man after my own heart. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges concurs: Much of the Psalm is sufficiently appropriate to Davids circumstances to account for its having been regarded as an expression of his feelings at that bitter crisis: but a closer examination makes it difficult, if not impossible, to suppose that it was actually written by him. Her father and grandfather were often at the You are committing a tu quoque fallacy!, an informal fallacy that intends to discredit the opponents argument by asserting the opponents failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s)., Thus, when Christians say that Muhammads (peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was immoral, and if Muslims were to respond by saying well, the Biblical figures married young girls too, so they are also immoral, that would be a tu quoque fallacy. While the enemies are not named, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I enjoyed sweet fellowship. Most, though not all, of the evidence for the age of marriage comes from outside the Bible (i.e., from outside scripture), which some Christians ignore because it is not inspired. 1055-1023.) It should be noted that the Bible does not state Bathsheba was _ years old. The Pulpit Commentary adds (emphasis ours): Of course, the statement is not intended for a universal law, and indeed was probably pointed especially at the bloody and deceitful men of whom the psalmist had been speaking. The ancient Jewish tradition preserved by Jerome (Qu. I believe that you have misunderstood my comment. Rather, Ahithophel must be the close friend, since he was Davids counselor. We will use two main sources for this: 2 Samuel and Psalm 55 (though other books will also be used). with 2 Samuel 23:34)., [14] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-samuel-11.html#3, Bath-sheba was the granddaughter of Ahithophel 2 Samuel 23:34., [15] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bcc/2-samuel-12.html#1, He had no pity for the beautiful young Bathsheba whom he ordered to his bed. David also prayed to God to confuse the wicked, [and] confound their words (55:9) and that God would bring down the wicked into the pit of decay (55:23). 21. The bottom line is that there is no evidence to support the claim that there were two Eliams. Information related to the topic how old was bathsheba when she met david. [] Altogether it seems to us to relate to that mournful era when the King was betrayed by his trusted counsellor., [34] https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/c2000_Psa/Psa_051.cfm?a=533001, Now David evidently wrote this psalm when he was fleeing from Absalom. IT experts since 1997. Probably in her young 20s and even possibly younger. Most girls of marrying age were as young as 15. David of course was watching her bathe outsid Absalom summoned Ahithophel to come to Hebron from his hometown of Giloh (hence, Ahithophel was known as the Gilohite). No, Jesus was not the first son of David and Bathsheba. Credit Line: Bequest of Benjamin Altman, 1913. [95] Holmans Bible Dictionary argues that the Chronicler may have confused the title of Helez the Paltite (2 Samuel 23:26) and that Ahijah the Pelonite was a textual corruption. [51] Pirkei Avot, Chapter 6, https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot.6?lang=bi. It should also be pointed out that there is no indication that Bathshebas marriage to either Uriah or David was seen as abnormal or immoral. This is confirmed by most dictionaries, including Smiths Bible Dictionary,[6] the American Tract Society Bible Dictionary,[7] Fausetts Bible Dictionary,[8] the Holman Bible Dictionary,[9] Hastings Bible Dictionary,[10] the Morrish Bible Dictionary,[11] the Peoples Dictionary of the Bible,[12] and the Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature. A child who died in infancy without a name. David considered that the punishment for their crime of adultery, and Uriahs judicial murder. The seco It also means that she had married Uriah the Hittite at even earlier age. David didnt seduce Bathsheba; he raped her. [73] The reason for this is that it used the incorrect Hebrew text for 2 Samuel 15:7 (at the end of forty years), but the correct reading should be at the end of 4 years, as explained by Barnes: [a]n obvious clerical error, though a very ancient one for four years, which may date from Absaloms return from Geshur, or from his reconciliation with David, or from the commencement of the criminal schemes. I swear on your very life,[d] I will not do that!. Contrast Bathshebas husband Uriah to Abigails husband Nabal. Heb. (2Samuel 16:23), So, if Ahithophel was less than 40 years of age at the time of his death (let us conservatively assume he was. It only criticizes the explanation of Ahithophels possible motive for helping Absalom (i.e., revenge for Davids sinful act with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah the Hittite). Brother can you refute this also. [] This was also based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha. Rather, Ahithophel must be the close friend, since he was Davids counselor. My bad. Actually, God had no problem with it. [74] https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5288&t=KJV, [75] https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7390&t=KJV, [76] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jfu/2-chronicles-24.html#15, [79] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque. Even knowing she was It is even in Sahih International. If the historical David (peace be upon him) had indeed married Bathsheba at such a young age (without committing adultery), the marriage would not have been consummated until she was physically mature, which would have been at the onset of puberty. King David Create. Know that this is true that women conceive at an earlier age, as Bathsheba had already given birth to a child from David before giving birth to Solomon[4], But how did the rabbis come to this conclusion if the Bible does not directly provide such information? Hehehe, you guys are really funny. Christians should try to be consistent. He reigned for 40 years. These include Adam Clarke. Bathsheba did not take a ritual bath when she was spied on. WebAbigail (Hebrew: , Modern: Avgayl, Tiberian: Aayl) was an Israelite woman in the Hebrew Bible married to Nabal; she married the future King David after Nabal's death (1 Samuel 25). There is no hint that the writer is a king whose authority is threatened by a formidable insurrection. 8 Then David told Uriah, Go down to your house and wash your feet., Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. As shown, David was declaring that those who had betrayed him and were trying to kill him will not live out half their days. So, if Ahithophel was less than 40 years of age at the time of his death (let us conservatively assume he was 39 years old), and he was Bathshebas grandfather, then how old could Bathsheba have been around this time? They shall live as long as the Lord of life, the righteous Judge, has appointed, with whom the number of our months is; but he has determined to cut them off by an untimely death in the midst of their days., [58] https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/spurgeon_charles/tod/ps055.cfm?a=533023, A wicked man never lives out half his days; for either he is cut off before he hath lived half the course of nature, or he is cut off before he hath lived a quarter of the course of his desires; either he lives not half so long as he would; and therefore let him die when he will, his death is full of terror, trouble, and confusion, because he dies out of season. Others may come to accept the evidence presented but will still attempt to downplay it. 25. If you want, I can just make a website refuting your baseless claims. Ironically, from an Islamic point of view, marriage at such a young age is prohibited (unless Bathsheba had somehow entered puberty as such an early age and was both socially and physically mature, which is unlikely). This relationship probably led to Ahithophels disloyalty (2 Samuel 15:12)., [18] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ghe/2-samuel-15.html#1, Ahithophel was very likely the grandfather of Bathsheba, [19] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hcc/2-samuel-11.html#3, The grandfather of Bethsabee is supposed to have revolted against David, to revenge the wrong done to her., [20] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jfu/2-samuel-23.html#34, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite , [ Eliy`aam (Hebrew #463)] omitted in the parallel list of 1 Chronicles 11:1-47; traditionally believed to be the same as the person mentioned, 2 Samuel 11:23 (Jerome, Quaest. Less than eight years old. She was eight when she had her first child. (Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 69b). This cannot refer to Absalom. Interestingly, the inspired text states that Ahithophels advice to Absalom was good but that Absalom instead chose to follow the bad advice of Hushai the Arkite (2 Samuel 17:14), who was in fact a double-agent sent by David. [105] This agrees with Biblical standards as well. However, this does not appear to be a reasonable assumption. But as demonstrated above, all the major commentators, both Jewish and Christian, agreed that the subject of the psalm was the Davids anguish for Ahithophels betrayal. Both commentaries base their views on the supposition that the psalmist was still in Jerusalem at the time, whereas David found out about the Ahithophels involvement only after he had fled Jerusalem (2 Samuel 15:31). Psalm 55 is a prayer of David asking God to save him from his enemies. But as for me, I trust in you.. Title: The Toilet of Bathsheba. Since Bathsheba could not have been older than 20 at the time (since Ahithophel was 39 years old and Eliam was probably in his late 20s), which means that at the time of Solomons birth, Then King David said to the whole assembly: My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen, is young [, Based on this seemingly contradictory information, let us follow the, Your argument is based on a selective interpretation of Psalm 55., You are taking Psalm 55:23 too literally!, Maybe people could live even longer than 80 years of age at the time of David! The next day 13 David called for him, and he ate and drank, and David got him drunk. If we assume that the four years refers to the time from the commencement of the criminal schemes (per Barnes), that means that Solomon was no older than 9 years (2+3+2+2=9). Or examples of sex slaves in the Bible (I remember Hagar and Jacobs slaves were used for sex to have babies). David asked his servants This elite group also included Uriah the Hittite (v. 39). 12 Then David told Uriah, Stay here one more day. Thus, Bathsheba could have been around 12-14 years old at the time of the birth of Solomon, which means that she was around 10-12 years old at the time David first encountered her. For Davids close counselor and friend, Ahithophel, actually revolted against David when Absalom did. This verse is crucial. This illustrates that Ahithophel was probably a young man (Source: This brings us to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age. He hanged himself after realizing that the revolt would fail. Eliam. In other words, you can talk to younger children about David treating Bathsheba like she was his No age is mentioned, but And Im about to make articles as a form of ultimate refutations to your silly allegations. [80] Some others do question the identification of Bathshebas father with Eliam the son of Ahithophel but do not provide concrete evidence. He was the grandfather of Bathsheba.[69]. (Now she had been purifying herself after her monthly period.) This does not mean that Muslims should marry their 9-year old children in modern times, because as stated above (see objection #5), people we would consider children in our times were not necessarily considered as such in ancient times. [100] Perhaps most controversial is his refusal to assign a particular age to serve as a cutoff. There are 2 videos refuting IC on Marys age. David was sinful because he had taken another mans wife, not that he had slept with a 7-year old. [76] Moreover, he did not live in the time of David but more than 100 years after him. He didnt lure her. [2] Thus, Christians will reject the estimation of Abishag and Marys ages (approximately 12 years) because the Bible does not specifically state it and because the estimate comes from Jewish commentaries or historical evidence or even the early church fathers and not from the Biblical text.[3]. He didnt woo her. However, we can still estimate her age using the Biblical chronology. Are these prayers also meant to be interpreted allegorically? This fits quite well with Psalm 55:9, which states: Lord, confuse the wicked, confound their words, for I see violence and strife in the city., [50] https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16276/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-55.htm. It was during Davids years as a fugitive from Saul that he met a lovely woman named Abigail. A minority of scholars questioned the application of the psalm to Ahithophel. (LogOut/ WebEvery step was taken at the initiative of David. But, God called Bathsheba his own, worthy of legacy of his Son. The Biblical character of Bathsheba a bathing woman summoned by King David is brought to life in unbelievable detail! 34,) was one of Davids valiant men, [92] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bul/2-samuel-11.html#3, Eliam. How old was Bathsheba when she first met King David? And Uriahs death was no accident; it was murder in the first degree. There is disagreement among the experts as to what age that should be. Surah 70 Verse 30 which Christians take out of context. [32] John Phillips, The John Phillips Commentary Series: Exploring Psalms: An Expository Commentary, Vol. The Targum is, but thou Ahithophel; of whom the words are literally to be understood, and so they are in the Talmud (u); and mystically and typically of Judas[30], Other commentaries, such as those of Matthew Poole,[31] John Phillips,[32] C. H. Spurgeon,[33] Chuck Smith,[34] E.W. Thus, it was not child marriage at the time since maturity tended to occur much earlier than it does now. In my view, we should leave it to the experts (e.g., physicians and psychologists) to determine what is an appropriate age for maturity, if there is one. [3] Nevertheless, in the last article, I demonstrated that in Marys time, the age of 12 was the average age of puberty as well as marriage. As far as I am aware, this evidence has not been discussed before in Muslim-Christian debates, so it is completely new (though it is not a new discovery). Yes, David must have been in his late 30s to his early 40s and Bathsheba would have been young but of age, not an adolescent. This was also the conclusion of Jewish and Christian commentators. This is the thing that really hurt David, is that Absalom had turned against him., [35] https://www.studylight.org/commentary/psalms/55-13.html, as mine equal: i.e. Even if we grant a new upper limit, 90 years, that does not improve the situation for embarrassed Christian apologists. And Ahithophel began to counsel Absalom on how to destroy David. JazahAllahu Khair for your hard word we learn so much from you, Was iyyak. 24. It is not impossible that this Eliam is the same as the preceding., [88] https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/mse/e/eliam.html, The same name Eliam also occurs as that of a Gilonite, the son of Ahithophel, and one of Davids thirty warriors (2 Samuel 23:34). As for Davids age, it can be estimated based on the account of Solomons ascension to the throne of Israel in 1 Chronicles 29. By the way, I made a website and I have debunked the claim which you have made Allah the Moon God. Not only was this marriage permitted, it resulted in the birth of yet another beloved figure, Solomon. David meets Solomon's mother (Bathsheba) in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 11:1-3). Part of the reason for some Christians denial about child marriage in the Bible is that the Bible does not mention any specific age at which marriage could occur. These include Adam Clarke,[56] Matthew Henry,[57] Joseph Caryl,[58] Henry Hammond,[59] and Griffith Williams. bloody and deceitful mendo not come up to. Thus, while some people (a very small minority) may have lived into their 90s (though no proof exists from the Bible), this would not have been the normal extent of life at the time. This directly contradicts the account in 2 Samuel 17. Yes, this is certainly possible, but where is the evidence from the Bible? The Bible says, And the woman was intelligent and beautiful in appearance (1 Sam. [62] Later, Ahithophel was with Absalom in Jerusalem. [13] https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/mse/a/ahithophel.html, He probably hoped to wield a greater sway under the vain prince than he had done under David, against whom it is also possible that he entertained a secret malice on account of his granddaughter Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11:3, comp. While puberty could occur at such an early age, it is unlikely. He started off being a shepherd. Then he killed Goliath. It showed that he comforted the kings bad disposition by playing the harp. King Saul chas [] This was also based on the Prophets marriage to Aisha. The evidence in question comes from the infamous marriage of David and Bathsheba. She was two years old, on our scheme, when David became king. Subjects > Arts & Entertainment > Movies & Television. According to Psalm 90:10: Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures;. Regardless, most sources reasonably identify the two Eliams as the same person, including, There is simply no reason to make assume otherwise, other than to avoid the embarrassment of finding out Bathshebas true age. The traditional ascription to David cannot on any ground be maintained. shall not half their days; that is, shall be soon cut off. The suicide of Ahithophel, and the slaughter of Absalom with so many of his followers, furnished a striking commentary on the statement.. Bathsheba couldnt say no to King David any more than an enslaved Sally Hemmings could say no to Thomas Jefferson. We have already seen evidence in a previous article that the marriage was Biblically valid. [a]ll the expressions used in this verse would probably be applicable to Ahithophel, and to the intimacy between him and David., This was also the conclusion of the classical Jewish sources, such as the Targums and the Talmud, as explained in, But it was thou,. Furthermore, as stated, David himself was 70 years old at the time of his death. Oops, Im sorry, I thought you were Christian. another great academic article. Grants Commentary on the Bible,[23] Alexander McLarens Expositions of Holy Scripture,[24] R.A Torreys Treasury of Scripture Knowledge,[25] The Biblical Illustrator,[26] and The Pulpit Commentary.[27]. In what two situations was Bathsheba caught, and how did she respond in each? In turn, to determine her age at the time of Solomons (David and Bathshebas second son) birth, we need to first determine Solomons age at the time of Ahithophels death. Once David took the bait, Nathan pronounced Gods judgment: This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I anointed you king over Israel Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? Yet, as with the attribution of the psalm to Ahithophel, the interpretation of verse 23 was largely unified among the commentators. What did Davids actions cost Bathsheba? Could you also so a video refuting Islam Critiqued on the age of Mary. Moreover, I showed that when Jesus was a 12-year old boy, his parents took him to the Passover festival, as the law required for boys his age. An older king could certainly have a younger counselor, and since early marriages were very common, it is not surprising for a 3040-year-old man to have grandchildren. Thus, he went back to his home and hanged himself (2 Samuel 17:23). The traditional ascription to David cannot on any ground be maintained. In this section, I will try to pre-empt some possible Christian objections. It was most appropriate for the bride, groom and brides guardian to determine the appropriate age for intercourse. So says the Benson Commentary (emphasis ours): Not half so long as men ordinarily live, and as they, by the course of nature, might have lived, and as they themselves expected to live, but shall be cut off by Gods just judgment, by an untimely and violent death.[52]. And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Cmon bro, dont get me wrong. WebIt means that Bathsheba grew up around the palace of David. This brings us to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age. Since David died when he was 70 years old, it means that he was 50 years old when Bathsheba (911 years old) gave birth to Solomon. Bathsheba, a name that to many, means seduction and sin, a name to remain unspoken! All which agrees to Achitophel., [47] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/whe/psalms-55.html#13, From this rapid survey of the general calamity, David turns to the chief supporter of the rebellion, his former chief counsellor, Ahithophel. This is where Psalm 55 comes in. In a previous article, I demonstrated that the Bible generally allowed marriage and sex at the onset of puberty (with the exception of Numbers 31:18 which seemingly allowed sex even before puberty). But this is not reasonable. [66] Saul also lived into his seventies. Change). [71] After returning to Jerusalem, Absalom lived there for another 2 years. He had no pity for Bathshebas grandfather Ahithophel, Davids trusted friend and adviser, [16] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dcc/2-samuel-15.html#1, Ahithophel (2 Samuel 15:12) was probably Bathshebas grandfather (2 Samuel 11:3; 2 Samuel 23:34)., [17] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bul/2-samuel-11.html#3. What if someone was 90 years old at the time?, Yes, this is certainly possible, but where is the evidence from the Bible? King David towers over the Old Testament, and the Son of David towers over the New. Psychologist Dr. Robert Epstein has made the controversial suggestion that young people, regardless of how young, should be allowed to make decisions about marriage and sex provided that they demonstrate that he or she knows about the risks of sexis physically and emotionally mature, and so on[99] He also suggests that they should have to pass one or more appropriate competency tests. Since David died when he was 70 years old, it means that he was 50 years old when Bathsheba (9-11 years old) gave birth to Solomon. When she came to him, he had sex with her. According to the decree of God, he might have lived the other half; but he has not done it., [57] https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/psalms/55.htm, They are bloody and deceitful men (that is, the worst of men) and therefore shall not live out half their days, not half so long as men ordinarily live, and as they might have lived in a course of nature, and as they themselves expected to live. Bath-sheba was the granddaughter of Ahithophel 2 Samuel 23:34., [90] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jtc/2-samuel-11.html#3, [91] https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hcc/2-samuel-11.html#3, By a transposition of letters, he is called Ammiel, in 1 Paralipomenon iii. As Jonathan Brown explains: the medieval ulama considered the point at which a girl was fit for intercourse to be too varied to be firmly legislated for. Here are the search results of the thread how old was bathsheba when she met 6 Then David sent a message to Joab: Send me Uriah the Hittite. So Joab sent Uriah to David. Log in. Note that the dictionary does not deny that Ahithophel was Bathshebas granddaughter or that he was the subject of Psalm 55. But you, God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of decay; Of course, the statement is not intended for a universal law, and indeed was probably pointed especially at the bloody and deceitful men of whom the psalmist had been speaking. Purifying herself after her monthly period. first child sources for this 2..., Ahithophel must be the close friend how old was bathsheba when she met david Ahithophel was Bathshebas granddaughter or that he was grandfather... At even earlier age much from you, was iyyak [ d ] will. 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To determine the appropriate age for intercourse our strength endures ; initiative of and! Appropriate for the bride, groom and brides guardian to determine the appropriate age for intercourse it resulted the. Phillips Commentary Series: Exploring Psalms: An Expository Commentary, Vol was 70 years old on. Of Christians & Jews ] until they reach marriageable age ; that is, be... Christian apologists any ground be maintained estimate her age using the Biblical chronology in. Related to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age was the grandfather Bathsheba. And hanged himself after realizing that the marriage was Biblically valid her monthly period. appropriate age intercourse! Information related to the most crucial point of our academic journey of determining Ahithophels age sorry, I made website! Others may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures ; seco it also that... 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